#ozai critical

[ilikepjo24]

Azula: Having an abusive parent is kinda funny in retrospect, like, mommy why do you have beef with me? I'm 4, I love you.

Zuko: Haters (my dad) can't stand to see a bad bitch (me, 6 years old) winning (drawing "too loudly")

[bellatrixobsessed1]

If what you mean by free will is, “You could have made different choices with the knowledge and experiences you had at the time.” Then Ozai had that, although some people don’t believe in free will. But if what you mean by “free will” is “You could have lived a morally better life with the knowledge and experiences you had at the time” then according to you, “he was raised in a way where he kind of didn’t really have a chance. Going back to the free will thing–all he really knew was power”...

... so I’m guessing you’re leaning towards no. But does Ozai have any “mirror and beach scenes” that might suggest otherwise? Is Ozai morally accountable for his actions if he didn’t have the “free will” to know any better?

TW: For more abuse discussion

I do lean towards no. Aside from that extremely brief scene where we see his baby picture, I feel like there wasn't much in canon to really argue a defensive case for him.

For me my pity/sympathy lies in that Ozai is from a chain of abuse. I don't think that there was any scene in Avatar that gave him a moment like Azula's that indicated that he feels bad for anything that he's done. He hasn't really had any scenes that portray a softer side like the ones we got for Azula and Zuko.

I think that Ozai should very much be held accountable because at this point I do think he is more than old enough to know logically what is right and wrong. Even Azula seemed to understand that she was in the wrong and expressed a degree of regret. I firmly believe that Ozai knew just as well that he was doing bad things to heighten his position, he just went on doing that because it would get him to the top. His motivations were self serving. While Azula and Zuko did bad things to gain approval and/or love. Azula did things because she thought that it was best for the Fire Nation as a whole. Zuko did bad things because he was hurt. I think that assessing motivation is another key thing to look at. Ozai's motives were fueled by power and selfishness.

Where I grant some leeway is that, while he knows right from wrong, he was raised in such a way that makes it harder for him to choose to do right. But as a grown man and not an impressionable, impulsive teen, he should know better.

And considering that he's a grown adult he should be held accountable.

I think that what I am trying to say here is that Ozai does have the knowledge that he is wrong but he doesn't have the life experience (of good role models and perspective altering adventures) to make better moral choices. Where Azula had neither of those things (the knowledge she had was conflicted), Ozai had one of the two.

I will now compare him to Regina Mills who is also an adult who grew up abused. She did a lot of messed up stuff. She also was never taught how to love and only ever had bad role models. But after seeing how she was hurting her own adoptive son she recognized that she was in fact doing bad things.

She got a lot of hints that she was doing wrong as the EVIL Queen. She knew that she was wrong. And she didn't have the tools/experiences to make the right choices. So just like Ozai.

Where the two differ is that eventually, after hurting Henry (her son), she finally realized that she fucked up. And she absolutely did deserve to be held accountable for all of the things that she did because--while her story was tragic--she's a grown ass woman who knew better but actively chose vengeance instead. Something that she herself admitted.

Ozai never had that moment. He never saw the hurt in Zuko's eyes and rethought things. Azula could have been Ozai's Henry. But he saw the hurt in her eyes when he rejected her and he didn't care at all. He chose himself. Unlike Regina, unlike Azula and Zuko, Ozai has no regard for anyone but himself.

Combining his age with his selfish motivations and the fact that he never displayed a canon moment of moral conflict like the other characters mentioned I do think that he should be held accountable.

I think that his story is sad; I think that it is a very good example of what it looks like when the chain of abuse doesn't break and when a person is never able to acquire the skills to make better moral choices.

[impossiblycolorfulpanda]

Not only that, but the throne isn't even rightfully his. It was originally meant for Iroh. He merely schemed his way to the top but couldn't do it on his own, he needed his wife's help.

The white lotus was around. They had the numbers and the element of surprise. Iroh claims it’d be “senseless violence” for him to reclaim his stolen birthright but figures everyone would be ok with Zuko doing it instead.

Why exactly does Ozai need to be Aang's problem again?

Just a reminder that Ozai is quite literally the biggest FLOP in Fire Nation history. Like his reign was by far the shortest (not including Azula since she was never actually crowned) and had some of the biggest military losses compared to his forefathers. The fact that most of the time he just sat his ass down in his royal palace while his FOURTEEN YEAR OLD daughter conquered Ba Sing Se and Omashu. To sum it up, Ozai is heartless dickhead bastard and he should be thankful that he was fighting a 12 year old air bender pacifist instead of literally any other avatar.

[prince-geo]

literally pleased with almost all of the new atla trailer except as per usual, Zuko's scar, idk why studios are so scared to commit to the intensity of the thing, its supposed to be shocking and obvious and textured and the first thing you see... that's the point, Zuko is supposed to struggle with feeling like it defines and brands him before finally coming to the point in his journey where he defines it.

Hollywood/big studios are known to hesitate or straight up avoid properly and honestly and unapologetically showing people with disfigurements/disabilities/facial differences etc. with the realism they deserve. Which is a shame in general for representation and humanization but ESPECIALLY in this case as its minimization actively harms it's narrative purpose as well

I promise making the scar more intense (shrivel up the ear a bit, make it intrude in his hairline, make his eye in a permanent squint due to nerve damage, for god sake REMOVE THE EYEBROW IT WAS BURNED OFF) will not make Zuko "ugly", (the actor is incapable of looking ugly and also the implication that scars make people too unappealing? yikes) but will actually do the character and his journey justice, not to mention really show Ozai's brutality, another essential narrative tool. Especially when he's bald like hello??? It should be even more stark and intense when he doesn't have hair to distract from it and cover his ear!!!

When transitioning from 2D to live action, of course some visuals are up for interpretation but that usually involved ADDING detail because the constraints of having to stay on modeling frame to frame is gone, not minimizing, removing or airbrushing. Doing Zuko's scar right to me is absolutely essential and I'm disappointed they seem just as as scared to go there as I thought they might. It doesn't have to be gory, if you've ever seen burn victims in real life or in pictures or even cosplayers/artists who are skilled in realistic burn makeup you'd know its possible to balance realism with humanity. It's possible especially with their resources to avoid the "scary Halloween makeup" route while not holding back on the brutality of the original injury.

Budget is definitely not an issue, or "scaring the kids" considering this remake is likely aiming to go a lil darker in tone than the cartoon (which was already super dark with its target audience of nickelodeon 7 year olds so no excuses) Audiences SHOULD be unsettled and upset when they see him but not because he's hard/disturbing to look at but because we are human and do not want to imagine someone doing that to a child.

It's a deliberate choice out of the all too common fear/hesitation to allow someone who is destined to eventually become a protagonist and is meant to be sympathized with to be "too ugly" while this hesitation is very rarely applied to straight up villains (again we come back to media's historic villainization of facial deformity). It's a trend that's always ticked me off in fanart too. The boy's face was melted, for gods sake. Zuko was always portrayed as an attractive boy in the cartoon (fire nation girls fawn over him) even with the intensity of his scar which is something I've always admired! People exist with scars similar to Zuko's in real life, and should not only be permitted to be represented as good guys and/or as attractive when their scars are toned down to be "palatable"

Like I said there's more that I loved than didn't love about the trailer, that can be a whole essay on it's own but I needed to get this very specific vent off my chest because it missed the mark so hard and stands out like a sore thumb in comparison to all the other visuals that hit the nail on the head to me

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

you know what made zuko work as a sympathetic and redeemable antagonist? the fact that he actually faced a moral dilemma and didn't want to do half of the things he did. the fact that he sometimes did the right thing even when he was actively an antagonist.

i feel like spop writers tried to replicate this but forgot to make catra act redeemable. she was just having the time of her life torturing people and there's a mini-breakdown every now and then where she acts like everyone is against her, and we're supposed to feel sorry for her.

[sleepyzukka]

I’m gonna be real, I think the writers simply didn’t want to give Azula a good ending or a good relationship with any of her family due to misogyny and ableism. I mean how hard was it to make her and her brother get along for at least a few minutes? So many ATLA characters had potential to be really good and they fucked them over because of how normalized it is to hate women and pity and praise men for the exact same thing women are hated for.

I’ve seen better dynamics between Zuko and Azula in FANFICTION than in the actual show or comics.

It’s like, you can give them moments of actually being siblings and STILL give them a complicated relationship and have Zuko feel inferior to Azula.

They grew up together, they had the same parents, they were both neglected by one of their parents, in Azula’s case BOTH of her parents.

And personally I feel like Ursa was kind of failing as a mother for Zuko as well but I won’t get TOO into that. She loved him, yes, but that doesn’t mean she truly did any good for him other than preventing him from being killed to be honest. If she genuinely cared for her kids she would have made sure they’d stick together and be there for each other. She would’ve taught him how to actually survive in the fire nation palace.

Ursa could have done so much for Azula as well. Ozai wasn’t present in their lives. In Zuko’s flashbacks, and even in the comic, we see that he is practically nowhere to be found half the time. Who was stopping her from watching Azula train? From complimenting her and giving her praise? From sitting with her by the turtleduck pond? She could have done literally anything with Azula and she chose not to.

Yes, Ursa was a victim but that doesn’t excuse the fact she failed as a mother.

But that’s just my opinion do NOT attack me about this I really don’t care.

[atla-confessions]

I still can't believe that Ursa wrote Ozai a letter saying Zuko wasn't actually his son.

Ursa wrote the abusive genocidal monarchist eugenicist a letter that one of his heirs was illegitimate, which will clearly piss him off and make him hate Zuko even more. Just to check to see if Ozai would read it.

The truth of the statement is entirely irrelevant honestly, it's such a cruel setup. She willingly put Zuko in much more danger and put a bigger target on his back just to get a rise out of Ozai, out of... short-sighted pettiness? As though the life of the only child she cared about was a bargaining chip?

X

[sheevbrapatine]

It is possible to make Ozai a bad guy without making him a sexual predator to Zuko or Azula. Why are you people obsessed with this shit?

[zuko-always-lies]

What if Iroh cared about Azula instead of Zuko?

This is an AU idea that I've never seen done, probably because it requires looking at Iroh in a certain way, but what if Iroh favored the other fire sibling? He's still a very deeply flawed individual with the same tendency toward favoritism typical in the royal family and he's still basically incapable of caring about more than one kid, but, for whatever reason, the kid he cares about is Azula. Maybe he had a daughter who died young and Azula reminds him of her. Maybe he sees too much of Ozai in Zuko. Maybe Azula reminds himself, in a positive way. Maybe he drank some "respect women" juice. Maybe Iroh is impressed with Azula's ability and intelligence and thinks she's the only leader with the potential to lead the Fire Nation into a new and better age. Maybe Azula reminds Iroh of Lu Ten since she drinks his favored brand of tea. What matters is that Iroh is very deeply attached to Azula and sees Zuko as primarily an obstacle to her.

All of this doesn't mean that Azula is necessarily super nice or respectful of Iroh or anything like that. After all, canon Zuko was often a disrespectful jerk to Iroh, and Iroh didn't care. Likewise, this AU's Iroh is willing to ignore or excuse it when Azula is a jerk to him, along with a lot of her other bad behavior.

This is not a "role-swap" AU between Zuko and Azula. Azula is not getting exiled (unless things go very radically different than canon in unexpected ways). This is not an AU about Iroh accompanying Azula in exile. Zuko might still get exiled, but if he does Iroh would just wish has hands of the situation and stay as close to his beloved Azula as he can. This is an AU about Iroh being as much as a guide and companion and mentor to Azula as he can.

The thing is that, again, Iroh has all of his canonical flaws as an uncle, mentor, and person, he just favors Azula. He's still distracted by his hedonistic desires. He still refuses to seriously confront his brother or to protect Azula and Zuko from him. He's still extremely vague and non-assertive in his guidance for her. He still idealizes her in ways that dehumanize her. Iroh still wishes to live vicariously through her. He still stokes her rivalry with Zuko, when it suits his purposes. He still keeps changing his expectations for Azula without clear communication. He's still unwilling to have a five minute "this is why imperialism is bad" talk. Everything that makes people call canon Iroh "a good uncle" is still present, it's just directed at Azula instead of Zuko.

And yes, this means that Azula, Iroh, and Ozai are probably all hanging around the palace at the same time, and Ozai might have opinions about Iroh's relationship with Azula and even try to disrupt it. On the other hand, Ozai seems like a very lazy parent with zero time for or interest in day to day parenting, so maybe not. Maybe, as long as Iroh knows his place, Ozai's OK with Iroh doing all the hard work of actually raising Azula and crafting her into an ideal heir and weapon, as long as he doesn't pass on too much failure to her.

Thoughts?

[erinoma9]

Problems with "The Search" Comic

Retconning Ursa's backstory

Some old lore about Ursa, before the comic came out.

Admittedly, this page conflates "royalty" with "nobility," which extends to Mai and Onji's page.

Contrast these excerpts to the Search. (SPOILERS AHEAD! And Long!)

"Born to Fire Nation royalty [nobility] and - raised as such."

Search! Ursa: Her family went into hiding after Roku's death. She grew up as a commoner in Hira'a - a small, remote 'backwater village' located on the far edge of the Fire Nation. Her father, Jinzuk worked as the town's magistrate, and her mother, Rina was a master herbalist. Her mother is the daughter of Avatar Roku and has his headpiece in her possession.

"She was the perfect match for Prince Ozai and soon became his wife"

Search! Ursa: Azulon and Ozai track down Avatar Roku's (supposedly remaining) descendants and possibly monitor them for months. They (forcibly) propose a union between Ursa and Ozai for eugenics purposes.

In a nutshell, her relation to Avatar Roku is enough to qualify her as the perfect match.

"There was a time when it probably wasn't such a bad marriage. I think they probably started okay. Certainly better than it ended up."

Search! Ursa: She didn't want to marry Ozai, she wanted to marry her one true love, Ikem but she didn't get much of a say. And come the wedding, Ozai drops a massive bombshell on her.

In short, it starts out as a bad marriage, to put it mildly.

Someone on TV tropes (Fridge Horror section. Be Warned!) posited that "started out okay" can mean anything. And that "okay" doesn't mean happy or willing.

To that I say, it's a massive stretch to claim this scene is equivalent to "started out okay." Okay is not another word for utterly miserable! Words similar to okay can range from alright, pleasant, acceptable or tolerable. So, "started out okay" and the conveniently ignored "better than it ended up" doesn't apply to the Search.

"She is a very sweet woman and a wonderful mother, but she is also very protective -- especially of her favorite child Zuko" ... "Ursa spent most of her time raising her children to be good Fire Nation citizens and the ideal royal family."

Search! Ursa: The comics intentionally or unintentionally avoid portraying Ursa as an imperialist but don't contradict that she taught Zuko and Azula Fire Nation Propaganda offscreen.

She didn't seem to care about being the "ideal royal" herself, privately at least.

For instance, she writes that infamous letter falsely citing Ikem as Zuko's father to spite Ozai among other reasons. Most damningly, she sees her life in the palace as "a life that [she] did not choose for herself," leading to the infamous memory wipe. Both examples have attracted critics, hence the "infamous" connotation, and arguably butcher her 'protective mother' characterisation.

Zuko Alone Ursa: Zuko. That's what moms are like. If you mess with their babies, humph, they're gonna bite you back! [Later on] Ursa: Zuko, please, my love, listen to me. Everything I've done, I've done to protect you. Remember this, Zuko. No matter how things may seem to change, never forget who you are. DoBS pt 2Ozai: My father, Fire Lord Azulon, had commanded me to do the unthinkable to you, my own son, and I was going to do it. Your mother found out and swore she would protect you at any cost. She knew I wanted the throne and she proposed a plan, a plan in which I would become Fire Lord and your life would be spared. [Later] Your mother did vicious, treasonous things that night. She knew the consequences and accepted them. For her treason, she was banished. "She (Ursa) kind of saved Zuko's life by doing something not very nice to Fire Lord Azulon" ~ Mike "Ursa mysteriously disappeared on the same night as Fire Lord Azulon's death. Some say that she was somehow involved in Fire Lord Azulon's death -- and that she did it to protect Zuko. But the truth is not known."

Search! Ursa: Despite these quotes stressing her role in Azulon's death and clearly implying that she murdered him, that role is given to Ozai. Instead, Search! Ursa merely makes the plan and a deadly poison, all because the writers didn't want her hands dirty.

Is it just me or is this scene so rushed? What happened to the "swore she would protect you at any cost" line?

Why does she assume she'll get to take her children, even though they are his heirs?

And then there's Ozai's response: he calls them, his collateral and has no problem referring to them as your children. He even threatens their lives, along with Ursa's, if she doesn’t keep her word.

Aside from how stupid it is for him to say that, it begs the question of why he didn't kill Ursa afterwards? He just lets her walk free when she's a loose end to him. Plot hole much!

So, Ursa's mum taught her how to make that poison - okay, in the vein of "what kind of mother forgets her children", what kind of mother teaches her daughter how to make an extremely deadly poison? Literally, no one talks about that!

[ilikepjo24]

@annie-handholder rebloged a post I made with some Ursa and Azula art (that does not belong to me, I just got permission from the artist to share it on this platform) and those were the tags, and I'd like to address them.

First of all, there's no indication of Azula being spoiled. Being a prodigy and being praised isn't the same as being spoiled, you are simply getting recognition for the skills you do have that are great and do deserve recognition. To assume that this recognition isn't essential and is actually spoiling a child will only serve to un-motivate them. So Azula receiving praise for being good at stuff is just a normal thing. You try hard and are skilled and you get praise as a reward. This isn't being spoiled.

Being spoiled is to be harmed in character by being treated too leniently or indulgently. This is a definition that I copy-pasted. This definition does not fit Azula. We see Ursa make an attempt to set boundaries and be stern whenever the situation called for it. We even see Ozai tell her to fuck off when she asks for credit for her own plan (which wasn't good parenting, it was toxic as well, but it was the opposite way. If giving your children too much praise is toxic then not giving them recognition at all for their own achievements and ideas is the other end of the rope, and both are toxic. You should find the middle ground and give your children the proper amount of praise).

Additionally, we don't see anything that would imply that Azula is being spoiled with material possessions. We see her get a gift once, but that's all. It's not like she goes around pointing at things she wants and everyone breaks their back to get her that thing. She's not obsessed with material possessions, as you'd expect a spoiled child to be.

Yes, Ozai did not address her bad behavior, in fact, he encouraged it when it didn't affect him personally. But he also nipped it in the bud when Azula did something that annoyed him. And Ursa addressed her bad behavior too. So it's not like Azula grew up spoiled and without rules because her parents let her do whatever she pleased. The problem is that the rules that were in place by Ozai weren't the correct ones. Instead of being a decent dad and person and teaching his daughter to also be a decent person, Ozai just taught Azula to not be a bother to him. And she did do that. So Azula did follow the rules that were in place for her. You wouldn't call a child that follows rules spoiled. At this point, you have to realize that Azula wasn't the problem. She wasn't spoiled. She followed the rules. The problem is that the rules in question were unreasonable. So you can't really blame the child and call them spoiled. You have to hold accountable the people that set those rules in place.

If Azula behaved the exact same way, but the rules she had to follow were the ones society has agreed upon, she'd be a model child. So she's not the problem. She's not spoiled. The problem is that she was playing a version of the game with different rules that the agreed upon, socially acceptable ones. The one to blame in this situation is the one that set her up for failure and taught her to play the wrong version of the game. I'm looking at you, Ozai.

The child isn't spoiled, she follows rules. The problem is the irresponsible parenting. So you can't just go ahead and paint Azula out to be the problem. It's shifting the blame from the irresponsible parents to the misguided child. It's simply not fair.

So if Azula wasn't spoiled, then why didn't she realize Ursa loved her?

Well, that's because Ursa wasn't that good at showing it. I have made multiple posts about how Ursa parented Azula, and so have a bunch of other people. The truth is, while Ursa was strict with Azula when needed, she was too lenient with Zuko, with who she clearly favored and spend more time with. I'm not saying Ursa didn't love Azula, but I am saying that Ursa could have done more to express that love, and then Azula would know it's there.

[zukosdualdao]

also if i see another “zuko was actually very weak and cowardly for only confronting ozai during the eclipse” post, i am going to explode, actually.

y’all get that you are saying exactly what ozai said, right? you are using the same rhetoric ozai, as an abuser, was using to attempt to manipulate and berate his son.

zuko is protecting himself from ozai here. he has been in physical danger from ozai at least two other times prior to this. (three, i think, if we’re counting comic canon, but i know that’s contentious.) he is taking necessary precautions. acting like that is a bad/weak/immoral thing for him to do is abuse apologism, there’s literally no other word for it.

[katarasmomsnecklace]

OK so controversial opinion

I haven't see the live action avatar (I'm a Katara stan yall I just can't do it) but going based of reviews and general consensus I can see I'm going against the grain here

I hate that the 41st is Zuko's crew

I've seen so many people say that it was the only change they liked but I cannot get on board with it

My biggest issue and I guess this is on me since it wasn't stated in the show (though heavily implied) was that I and many assumed that the 41st was child soldiers

I know they only state it's new recruits in the og but even as a kid I assumed that meant teens at the very oldest

I thought the 41st would be 14/15 year olds

And I assumed they all died

Leaving the fate of the 41st ambiguous was what made the fire nation terrifying to me as a kid, were they really willing to kill their own children? That's what made Zukos banishment hit so hard for me because if the Fire Lord could maim his own child, what was happening to the other kids in the fire nation?

Also it takes away a level of cruelty from Ozai, even if the 41st is alive is he really going to let Zuko know that, is going to let Zuko see the people he saved?

Plus I think it really sours Iroh telling the crew about Zuko's compassion and love of his nation and its people; instead it sounds more like "stop complaining that he's disrespectful he saved your lives"

I just can't see how it adds to the story and I think it actually makes Zuko's arc with his crew worse.

In my opinion, it messed with the untold story telling, we didn't need to know what happened to the 41st. Why not let the audience draw their own conclusions instead of dumbing it down

I just really really hate that change

[boneskullravenriver]

Me: ozai is an abusive father who has little redeeming qualities who treated his son and his daughter like shit.

Also me watching episode 6 agni Kai:

[longing-for-rain]

I just saw something about The Promise comic again, and honestly, that comic makes Aang’s whole stink about not killing Ozai even worse.

a) It was “genocidal warlords are people too” for Ozai, but then he turns around and agrees to kill Zuko? His friend, who he knows has a good heart? and completely ignoring what was basically suicidal ideation from Zuko

b) Ozai remains alive, and even though he can’t bend, he is still using his influence to manipulate and emotionally abuse Zuko. He proves to still be a threat to the world, and a threat on a more personal level to Zuko, who was well within his rights to want this man dead.

I don’t see why so many fans try to twist this into some kind of powerful message. There is nothing powerful or good about a character prioritizing his own moral purity above the safety of the entire world.

[stardust948]

Honestly, the "Aang refusing to kill Ozai" plot should have been introduced in Day of the Black Sun. I mean, what exactly was Aang’s plan when he corners Ozai during the invasion? (Sure hope it wasn't talk no jutsuu that never works.)

Here's a brief rewrite:

The eclipse is longer this time. Maybe we can show Yue manually prolonging it to give her friends extra time. While Azula is distracting Toph and Sokka, Aang manages to slip away and find Ozai’s bunker. It's right after Zuko confrontation and the two just missed each other.

The eclipse ended seconds ago but Ozai doesn't let Aang know. They fight and Aang corners him but hesitates on landing the finishing blow. Ozai mocks him then reveals his firebending. Aang barely escapes the bunker.

The rest of the season he struggles on what to do with Ozai. He can't kill him but he can't let him live either.

This way, there's more riding on the Aang vs Ozai fight in Sozin’s comet which is similar to their fight in DOTBS but amped up.